Curse

beserk · Nov 18, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Won FA on first go post update with no problems at all, however lost several times in a row at JQ earlier on today lol.

Pwny Ride · Nov 18, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Just an observation. Take it as you will.

Red Sonya · Nov 18, 2008, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Kurzick side has always had more players though Pwny even before the update. More people just like the kurzick look as well as the faction gains. Although I knew I could win more on the luxon side I just enjoyed the victories more when we did win on the Kurzick side when it really was imbalanced and in favor or the luxons 80/20.

Red Sonya · Nov 18, 2008, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by pin

If you could define pvp for us, we could finally settle this age old argument.

It's really very simple to define FA as PVP since you can't use any PVE ONLY skills during this MATCH. Plus PVP stands for Player vs Player and that is also what this match entails ALTHOUGH there are also NPC's to help the players during the match just like in GVG there are NPC's to help the players during the match as well and in AB and JQ there are NPC's to help the players during the match. SO, next you are going to say GVG isn't PVP as well? hahaha thas why people who think like you and that other noob are noobs. You have no clue what PVP is nor what the definition of it is and how many places it works in Guild Wars. RA is pvp, TA is pvp, HA is pvp, HB is pvp, FA is pvp, JQ is pvp and GVG is pvp. The only difference is that RA, FA and JQ are non-organized pvp and just uses random players to make up PVP teams.

Wrath of m0o · Nov 18, 2008, 12:57 PM // 12:57

It's not our fault Drizzt Do'Urden lives in the Echovald Forest. Blame it on the Dark Elves that follow him. That and the WWF living there to protect the endangered Black Moa.

Celeborn10 · Nov 18, 2008, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

I like the idea of limited classes on each side but how would the game know the difference between a smiter and a healer/prot monk or a damage rit vs a resto rit.

If a person chose to run a suboptimal smiter build or they would have more to fear from their teammates than their enemies. Some other combinations like Me/E Water Mesmer and R/W thumper don't quite do what their classes were designed for but they would still count towards their class cap. Most class roles can be lumped into either damage, countermeasures or healing. As much fun as it was to get 5 Domination Mesmers, it was rather gimmicky and probably wasn't enjoyable for the Kurzick. In pretty much all of PvP, if there's too much of a certain role it tends to be a gimmick (bloodspike) and unable to adapt to situations appropriately due to its narrow focus. This is why there is the use of 'balanced' teams in pretty much every team based arena.

kona · Nov 18, 2008, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by pin

If you could define pvp for us, we could finally settle this age old argument.

PvP Primer: Fort Aspenwood Cross-Training (Official Page)

A Factions PvP arena, Fort Aspenwood offers new players an excellent chance to break into competitive play....

Player vs. Player (Official Page)

Player-versus-player, or "PvP," is the core of the competition that puts the "competitive" in the CORPG. There are many varieties of PvP competition. You will sometimes find yourself on a randomly selected team, though more often you will choose your group before entering a PvP contest. Your objective might be as simple as eliminating the other team or it could be far more complex. PvP matches may also involve dangerous computer-controlled enemies on the map, so be watchful.

Player versus Player (Official Wiki)

Player versus player is a style of gameplay that pits players against each other in a competition. The objective in PvP is to defeat the opposing team(s), which can be accomplished by one of several different means, depending on the PvP format. This could be capturing control points, defeating the opponent's Guild Lord, scoring a higher kill count or just regular deathmatch.

- end of discussion :P -

Abedeus · Nov 18, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Yeah, but except for Monks (Luxons) and Elementalists/Mesmers (Kurzicks), you can ignore all players and just hit or heal NPCs. Kill Monks as Luxon to prevent them from healing, or kill Elementalists/Mesmers to prevent from damaging NPCs.

And that's it. It should be renamed to Players versus Non-Player-Characters.

Celeborn10 · Nov 18, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Yeah, but except for Monks (Luxons) and Elementalists/Mesmers (Kurzicks), you can ignore all players and just hit or heal NPCs. Kill Monks as Luxon to prevent them from healing, or kill Elementalists/Mesmers to prevent from damaging NPCs.

And that's it. It should be renamed to Players versus Non-Player-Characters.

You may ignore all the other players but will they ignore you? The AI will ignore you if you don't aggro and will behave predictably if you do aggro. What makes another player dangerous is their ability as humans to adapt regardless of how retarded they may initially seem to be. Other tactics than what you suggest include snaring, knockdowns, shutdown and positioning. A human player using these in the right places at the right times can be multiple times more dangerous than an npc (ie snaring as a Kurzick runs past the Luxon gangbang squad).

The Meth · Nov 18, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Who gives a shit whether people call it PvE or PvP? Shut the hell up about retarded semantics, the point of the thread is about kurzick vs luxon balance. Mods should delete the dumbass arguments over that subject so the thread returns to its purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

You can't say it's imbalanced because of one single element. Interesting enough, a year ago I was listening how Luxon NPCs are overpowered because warriors plow through everything and turtle bombards.

The match is set up with 8 players + NPC's vs 8 players + NPC's. If the luxon side's npcs can be rendered completely meaningless throughout the match with no/almost no effort by the kurzicks, YES ITS UNBALANCED.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

And you know what? It's true. Luxon NPCs are superior. Let's say both side do nothing. Who wins? Luxons. Juggernaut is so useless that in 95% cases doesn't even reach any Luxon. Kurzick NPCs in the middle are permanently dead and don't respawn. Etc etc

Luxon NPC's are superior only in the context of each side going AFK. A warrior has superior DPS against someone who stands still infront of him. He sure doesn't have superior DPS when crippled or blinded though does he? Turtles can be made useless even easier: have someone stand just about ANYWHERE in the middle part of the kurzick base, or failing that just kill the turlte and let 1 or 2 warriors run around aimlessly till the match ends.

Whoever said the juggernaut was good anyway? Has anyone in guild wars EVER said that? I don't think it ever does any damage in a match because its so slow. The rest of the kurzick NPC's, on the other hand, will insta rape any melee trying to attack them and deliver a sizeable DPS to other classes. Put any normal WoH monk and 1 damage oriented ally defending them and they can hold off and kill teams twice their size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

Turtle AI is fine. You can complain as much as you want, but both sides have NPCs and no NPC AI is perfect. The turtle does its job.

No, NPC AI can't be perfect. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be much better. Make the turtle groups automatically move forward to fire at the nearest kurzick NPC's. Problem solved. Unless you thought the job of the turtle was just to provide comic relief for luxons when melee tries to fight them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

It's not AI's fault that Luxon players dont kill those standing in the way of the turtle.

Well, to do so they have to expend an inordinate amount of effort (half the time it isn't even possible to get to the people ontop of the hills), they have to divert themselves from killing kurzick NPC's (which means that they have to give up their own damage just for the chance of the turtle moving up and getting some), and even if they do kill the player have fun killing them again 5 seconds later when they respawn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kona

deal with it, FA has been broken forever. before the update went online, FA has been a FUN Arena that didn't matter at all.
NOW it does matter, because raging hfff kids want easy factions and swarming FA with monks is idiot-proof right now

At least this shouldn't be a problem. By next week everyone wanting faction will know vanquishing is 5x faster then the fastest FA. Or maybe it will get worse because FA will only be home to people too unskilled to vanquish...

Traveller · Nov 18, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

It's seriously funny how much more crowded the Kurzick side is. And don't tell it's because the Kurzick side is more "appealing" because that's just bull - back in the day when there were bugs which made 2x luxon warriors spawn with a turtle, the luxon side was way more crowded. Some people play for whoever their alliance is with, but some just hop to whichever side they think wins more. And judging from my personal experience lately, it's Kurzick.

Maybe it's because good players are playing FA more, dunno. Or just my awful luck with teams. But there's definately less defy pain wammos and A/E's with Meteor shower, and more healers and interrupt rangers and mesmers. I'm not complaining if the average level of players in FA rises, but I wish it would rise in my teams too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Make the turtle groups automatically move forward to fire at the nearest kurzick NPC's. Problem solved.

Yes, please. Although they are mimicking the basic player behaviour perfectly by going into 1vs1 mode with anyone who damages them.

Servant of Kali · Nov 20, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Todays Report on Luxon FA!

Battle #1

DEFEAT!

1 leecher

Battle #2

DEFEAT!

1 leecher
1 non-loader
1 rage-quitter afterwards (cant blame him)

Battle #3

DEFEAT!

Kurzicks had 2 monks. Need I say more?
My team was good, but they had 2 monks. You get the point. We killed everyone except Gunther.

Oh, and seems like FA Kurzick side now starts attracting 12 yr old idiots who like to take overpowered side and spam "ownt" during the battle. Seriously, I want to IRL torture them. Some of us are playing on underpowered side on purpose, only to get this kind of treatment from cowards? Grow up.

Battle #4

DEFEAT!

My team was ok, need I say they had a bonder etc? There simply wasn't enough time.
Both this and last game I think I would have won with old timer.

Battle #5

DEFEAT

Kurzicks had monks.
Had same leecher again, but even worse than that I had a team who thought the goal here is to PvP and kill as many players as possible, as many times as possible. I just couldn't explain to them these players will ressurect very fast.

Note: Even with Dishonorable hex, it pays off to leech in Fort Aspenwood with new rewards. Put your character to leech. Grab a sandwitch and watch a movie or something. Put it to leech again. Go do some PvE. Leech again.. basically, even if you're blocked for 3 hours, that's still 3-4 times one can leech with no negative consequences so to speak.
Does leecher still get faction? It does right?

Note#2: Did I mention that a lot of team members dont report leechers? So they simply come back.

---

Conclusion:

Yes yes, I agree. If Kurzicks have a single monk, the chance to win drops to 50%. If Kurzicks have 2 monks, the chance to win drops to 5%. The rest of the team can be pretty much whatever.

Map balance is a joke, it's no wonder that there are leechers on Luxon side. It's the only thing you can do.

My next task!

I will play on Kurzick side UNTIL I LOSE

Servant of Kali · Nov 20, 2008, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Never mind that.

Lost 1st game on kurzick side; we had quitter.
Lost 2nd game on Kurzick side. We had no monk, and my team did not do absolutely anything. They didnt interrupt/stop turtles, didn't kill em, didnt kill enemy players, didn't run amber. Heck I've no idea what they did. Luxon team on the other hand was good and had 2 players with anti-enchant removal that I managed to notice.

Ok so it can be won on luxon side : > if kurzicks have no monk or it's 7v8 battle.

IamI · Nov 20, 2008, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I'm liking the reports, quite entertaining, at least when Jade Quarry sucks up more time and patience than it should.

What I've noticed is that switching sides on a win-lose streak often has little effect. You usually end up playing against the teams with no leechers, decent players, and at least a monk or two, while you get all the headless Assassins dashing about that fold like paper underneath anti-melee.

My best experience with the Kurzicks was having an Avatar of Balthazar dervish that did absolutely no meaningful damage what-so-ever, a Mesmer specced with about 5 domination interrupts, including Power Block, and Diversion, and finally a few damage rangers(this was pre-nerf of Expert's Dexterity, but it doesn't matter much). The Dervish thought he was making all the kills on the targets taking heavy shut-down and damage, poor guy.

Chthon · Nov 20, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

With two teams who understand the win conditions and have even the slightest inkling of how to go about it, FA has always favored the Kurzicks. The turtles are easily distractable and monks protecting the NPC's through the gates can buy more than ample time to run amber, even against a Luxon team with enchant stripping that's focused on NPC killing. It was that way even with the longer timer.

For clueless teams, FA used to favor the Luxons, heavily. That's changed. The map has been rebalanced around the clueless. Assuming the Luxons have such bad builds and coordination that the NPC's pose a problem for them, and assuming the Kurzicks take no steps to run amber or keep the NPC's alive, the timer ends just about the same time the Luxons should arrive at Gunther. That works fine in a clueless vs. clueless match; the problem comes when you start to add a few people to the Kurzick side who know what they're doing, and the match becomes hopelessly lopsided.

A11Eur0 · Nov 20, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I've found that when I run hammer warrior, we end up losing because i'm pretty much the only person I've found running amber. Maybe one or two more here or there. Always a leecher.

Switched to ranger and plinking turtles from the walls...went so much better. Maybe amber was being run more often too....but not likely as it was all the same players pretty much. One ranger running side to side stalling the turtles makes a big difference.

It was brutal weapon/glass arrows spiking too, so I was able to kill a turtle single handedly with a couple volleys. Add a monk to keep me protected from their eles/necros/mesmers and i can hold a side indefinitely.

Amadei · Nov 20, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

People run amber when you guys play? I'm so jealous

Here's how a typical Kurz match goes for me (been playing an N/Rt healer lately for gimmicky lulz and easy faction).

Match starts!
Some guy appears to be AFK, starts moving when the timer hits 0.
We split in two different directions, usually 6 toward the purple gate, 2 to orange.
We grab the mine, half the team dies outside because they think running into the middle of a Luxon mob + Siege Turtle + Luxon warriors is a decent plan of attack.
The other half makes it back inside with amber.
Everyone but one or two people gives amber to Gunther instead of fixing the now broken gates.
All hell breaks loose.
The Luxons recapture the mine(s).
No one runs amber anymore.

From hereon out, there are two possibilities. Either we have another monk/healer type besides me and we win or the Luxons rofflestomp us easily because no one bothers with gate-fixing anymore and are instead just trying to kill terra-tanks and Defy Pain warriors.

I must say, though, that it is easier for the Kurzicks to win now. But I also thought it was easier for the Luxons to win before the update, because all they had to do was kill stuff, whereas the Luxons had to cap amber mines, fix gates when they went down and protect NPCs, all at the same time.

Also, I really want the Juggernaut to show up in the Party Window like Gunther and his buddies. Plz, Anet? ;_;

Hyper.nl · Nov 20, 2008, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pwny Ride

Just an observation. Take it as you will.

Check your TrendMicro anti-virus software. Something may be outdated or unprotected there.

Red Sonya · Nov 20, 2008, 12:53 PM // 12:53

I built a chant removing touch ranger just to prove it can be done on luxon side IF YOU KNOW THE MECHANICS OF THE GAME and the NPC's. I have the siege shot of the turtle timed and just as its getting off it's shot I disenchant the npc that the monk THINKS he has bonded good....rend enchantments is an excellent disenchanter for those bonders. Then BANG down goes NPC and down goes gate....rince and repeat all the way through the green gate npc's. It's even easier when there's two turtles on that gate to bomb just as I disenchant that elementalist the monk THINKS he has bonded good. hahaha
Then being smart instead of attacking Gunther I take on that monk who can't keep himself healed and gunther at same time....one of them must die.

It's an excellent touch ranger/disenchanter build, but ,most nubs can't figure out stuff like that to win on the luxon side. Like I said most of them are nubs/noobs anyways. They only want to whine and QQ instead of think.

FoxBat · Nov 20, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

All these arguments based on mechanics (luxon NPCs are baed, kurz monks have it too easy etc.) are completely absurd.

Before the skew was heavily in luxon favor, now it's argued to be Kurzicks. But what's changed inbetween? Not NPCs, not skills, not map layout, but simply maximum match time. Previously the luxons could always overcome whatever supposed imbalances with enough time consistently. Loss of time now just makes that harder to do.

If any more balancing needs to be done, it's adjusting the match time. (and scaling rewards appropriately.)